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Operators on their own
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G1HUL View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 June 2008 at 20:53
Following on from the "Are the user-services vulnerable?" thread, the subject has occurred to me of operators finding themselves on their own.

How many times have operators been in the situation where the checkpoint/marshal/user staff have vacated the point for whatever reason, or you are sent somewhere and they never turn up? My guess is we can all name a few!

Setting aside the the welfare implications for a moment, we are there to pass messages on behalf of a user. If the staff aren't there, do we shut down? Or do we continue to monitor the location and just generate messages to control in connection with what might be happening?

We are not trained marshals, probably haven't attended the organisers briefing that the other event staff will have been at, so don't have the current background on what's going on. OK, the event will (should!) have insurance to cover all marshalling duties so as a part of the event we should be covered, but that is a legal quagmire if we haven't been briefed/trained.

IMHO if we are at a point where no-one turns up, we walk away. If staff permanently leave, we walk away. If staff leave for a short period, we make it clear to them we will not take over any part of their role, inform control and await their return.

The flip-side of this is that being out on a checkpoint can, if everything is running smoothly, be mind-numbingly boring, so getting involved in what is going on is a way of making yourself feel useful. It can often be a difficult call.
Jim, G1HUL
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Posts: 45 		Post Options Post Options   Quote g6rib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 June 2008 at 22:23

We did an event several years ago where the organisers didn't bother to arrange marshals for most of the check points.  The event involved inexperienced walkers on open moorland.

The collective decision made by all of the RAYNET operators involved was that we should log the participants through each check point.  While these people were not our responsibility,  it was agreed that we should do our best to ensure their safety.

Had we walked away and had someone gone missing then we would have been morally, and quite possibly legally, at fault for not making any effort when we were aware of the risks to these people.  It would not be easy to justify inaction to a coroner.

The issues in this area are complex and far from black and white!  It's very much a case of judging each situation and making an appropriate decision.
Andy Evans
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Posts: 603 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G1HUL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 June 2008 at 16:37
Originally posted by g6rib

We did an event several years ago where the organisers didn't bother to arrange marshals for most of the check points.  The event involved inexperienced walkers on open moorland.

The collective decision made by all of the RAYNET operators involved was that we should log the participants through each check point.  While these people were not our responsibility,  it was agreed that we should do our best to ensure their safety.



How long before the event was this known, or did you only find out about the missing marshals on the day?

I am taking it that the RAYNET operators were themselves experienced mountain people and were prepared for a long stint on their own?

Although difficult to judge based on your based on your short description of the situation, if the operators were not capable and kitted for that type of operation I would have pulled out and made strong, witnessed representation to the organiser that I believed they were failing in their duty of care to the participants.

Agree it's a difficult call in may cases, but our duty of care MUST always be to our own members before any others.
Jim, G1HUL
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Posts: 603 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G1HUL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 June 2008 at 16:39
I agree it's certainly a muddy shade of grey!!!

If we take the view that we pass messages on behalf of a User Service (if we don't we are breaking the amateur licence), no staff at your location = no job.

However, once you are on your own, the messages you pass cease to be 3rd party as you are generating them yourself, so as you say it comes down to making the judgement on the day, both from a ops controller level and each individual member.
Jim, G1HUL
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Posts: 45 		Post Options Post Options   Quote g6rib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 June 2008 at 20:07

The event was a fund raising walk over twelve miles and the participants were not experienced walkers.  There were six manned check points plus control where there should have been marshals and a RAYNET operator. 

All locations were accessible by car so all of the RAYNET personnel were vehicle based and at no time was there any risk to them.  It should also be stated that there were three experienced walkers in the RAYNET team that day and everyone had good local knowledge of the area.

There was no advance warning that there were problems with the marshals.  It was simply that the RAYNET operators arrived to find no marshals and despite promises via control none arrived except at the first check point, if I remember correctly.

Had we known in advance what would happen, then it would have been sensible for RAYNET to withdraw.  The problem was that the walkers were out and the organisers had failed in their responsibilities but RAYNET was aware of the situation and in a position to reduce the consequences of anything going wrong.

We provided a point of contact where any problems could be reported and relayed via control to the organisers should they occur.  We also tracked numbers through the check points to check that no one was missing on each section.  RAYNET did not go beyond passing information or provide any direct assistance - first aid, transport, food, drink, etc.  

Passing messages on behalf of a User Service does not mean that messages have to originate from the User Service.  While the EPO is often the nominated User Service, I can only think of one event where any EPO staff (other than RAYNET members) were present. 

Is there any real difference in a message originating from a marshal or a RAYNET operator?  In this situation messages were being passed between licenced amateurs so was a User Service required anyway?

I have no doubts that the right decision was made in this case and RAYNET would been at far greater risk of civil or criminal action had we abandonded the participants as the organisers had in effect done.  Regardless of everything else it was about doing the right thing. 

It's no bad thing to have this discussion and to encourage everyone to consider the issues.
Andy Evans
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Posts: 603 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G1HUL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 June 2008 at 22:20
Originally posted by g6rib

I have no doubts that the right decision was made in this case and RAYNET would been at far greater risk of civil or criminal action had we abandonded the participants as the organisers had in effect done.  Regardless of everything else it was about doing the right thing. 



Agreed.

There is a huge difference between knowing beforehand and being "dropped in it" on the day. I've lost count of the events RAYNET has ended up propping up some part of the organisation or, in one or two cases, ended up saving some aspect of the event from complete meltdown.

We had an excellent example of "being thrown a curveball" some years ago. Local half marathon, senior marshal who is travelling (with RAYNET operator) about 20min ahead of the race reports RTA on course, road blocked, race cannot pass. Lead runners about 10 mins from point of no return (i.e. they will be past any other roads which might offer a different route).

OK, we pass the info very quickly to the organisers who deliberate for 30 seconds or so, then the curveball - Question to RAYNET: "What do you suggest?". They hadn't a clue what to do!
!
We gave them the only two options we could think of (stop, or bring the race down a main road and across a busy motorway junction). They asked if we could get it re-routed.
!!!
This was one of the few occasions we had been provided with a Police hand-held for our control. We asked, and the Police closed the motorway junction and re-routed the race.

I was the Operational Controller that day. It was an interesting 15 minutes!


We often joke about "RAYNET consultancy", but over the years we have seen just about every way it is possible to screw up an event and can often predict what's going to happen before the organisers. RAYNET is in a very privileged position on most events of probably having a better idea of how things are running than those actually running it. Organisers who recognise this are likely to ask advice, or at least understand we are able to provide an accurate "big picture".
Jim, G1HUL
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Posts: 199 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Wayne M5WJF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2008 at 01:59
I agree Jim, being dropped in it can be interesting.

I remember being asked to provide a 2m mobile transceiver and antenna to provide comms at a Checkpoint on the Exmoor 100 a few years ago.

I decided to bring more coax than I needed, and a mains PSU, just for my own piece of mind, and reported to event control at Minehead to be tasked by Control.

On entering 'Control' two hours after the event had started (Motorway Traffic), I asked where it was, and was told that I was it...for the next 48 hours.

No Control Station had been established, and I had to work from scratch, gathering event and checkpoint information, it was an interesting 48 hours, I couldn't walk away from it as there were several hundred walkers out on Exmoor with poor GSM coverage.

I certainly had a better idea than the organisers, and together with other RAYNET Members that turned up afterwards, we managed to 'run' the event for them, even though we lost several comms links on 2m overnight due to the vagaries of the mist, and had to reposition vehicles to maintain contact with checkpoints that were no longer covered by the single in-band Repeater that was deployed over the weekend.

Not the 8 hour stint with Marshalls that I was expecting that weekend as a guest of the local RAYNET Group, but there is a lot more to the story that I won't go into here.
Wayne M5WJF
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Posts: 603 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G1HUL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2008 at 07:44
Originally posted by Wayne M5WJF

Not the 8 hour stint with Marshalls that I was expecting that weekend as a guest of the local RAYNET Group, but there is a lot more to the story that I won't go into here.


I've read the reports on this (including yours), it was hair-raising to say the least!
Jim, G1HUL
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Posts: 603 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G1HUL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2008 at 11:54
Originally posted by g6rib

Passing messages on behalf of a User Service does not mean that messages have to originate from the User Service.  While the EPO is often the nominated User Service, I can only think of one event where any EPO staff (other than RAYNET members) were present.


See new thread.
http://www.raynet-uk.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=700
Jim, G1HUL
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Posts: 272 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GW4KJW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2008 at 12:07

Originally posted by G1HUL


We are not trained marshals, probably haven't attended the organisers briefing that the other event staff will have been at, so don't have the current background on what's going on. OK, the event will (should!) have insurance to cover all marshalling duties so as a part of the event we should be covered, but that is a legal quagmire if we haven't been briefed/trained.

This is a very good point. 
If RAYNET people haven't attended the briefing and/or any specialist training which the marshals have been given and yet still take part in the marshal's duties, we may not be covered by any insurance at all... Neither RAYNET insurance - obviously, nor more specifically the event insurance.  The latter may/almost certainly does, have small print requiring the marshals to have received special briefing and/or training.

If/when something goes wrong, where does that leave us, other than up somewhere  without a paddle.

Originally posted by G1HUL


The flip-side of this is that being out on a checkpoint can, if everything is running smoothly, be mind-numbingly boring, so getting involved in what is going on is a way of making yourself feel useful. It can often be a difficult call.

Maybe we'll be safer taking a crossword puzzle to do during the boring bits.
Gareth GW4KJW
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